I appreciate what you did!

So nice to meet you too♥

If I find the online sessions, I’ll let ya know.

~MizB

Mind you, apparently you can download the DVD sessions online for $4 each. I think they’re available from http://www.lifeway.com.

I, personally, get soooooo much from the DVDs, where Beth teaches for 45 minutes-1 hour. But, that’s just me.

So, ’tis up to you.

~MizB

You wrote: Maybe that’s kinda what the authors were getting at… that churches can cause us to focus on the “external” signs of our faith (how we dress at service, how often we go to service, which building we attend church in, etc.) instead of the “internal” heart of our faith.

I think that was part of it. I think a lot of their focus, though, was that the regular laypeople (us) are almost wooed into being passive in their faith, instead of being active participants. We go to the church on Sunday to be “fed”, but often neglect feeding ourselves throughout the week. And, yes, I think that the pastors preaching their own agendas might have something to do with these authors’ stance.

They think that all believers should have the opportunity to use their God-given gifts… not just the pastors/church elders. When we’re sitting in a pew, listening, each Sunday, we aren’t often using our gifts. Whereas, in an “organic church”, there is no human leadership, so everyone in the room gets a chance to speak/share, and all are able to use their gifts to edify the others.

You seem really curious, so I highly recommend that you find a copy & read this! You would probably get a lot more out of it that way then if I just try to explain what was going on. LOL. ((not that I mind! I’m glad to have someone to discuss the book with! — but you’ll still benefit more from it in your own reading, I”m sure)).

And, no worries… I didn’t see your former comments as judgemental or anything… I appreciate your viewpoint.

~MizB

I can see know what you mean about being alarmed that they think of pastors in such a way. I’d be interested in their spiritual backgrounds, since we often draw our conclusions from our own experiences. Do they not see that pastors serve the role as Teacher? Did they think it was a spectator sport when Jesus himself gave the Sermon on the Mount to a captive audience? Or do they think only Jesus can play that role?

Our pastor does a great job of engaging us in his teachings, as do many pastors, I’m sure. I know not all pastors are gifted teachers or speakers. I also have issue with those who tend to make “their words” the gospel instead of retaining God’s word as the Gospel. I definitely don’t think that only pastors have the ability to teach others about the Word or to reveal it’s truth. I think anyone with the Holy Spirit possesses the ability to receive the Truth of God. But pastors often have many more opportunities to study the word than regular laypersons, so I think we would be remiss to not take advantage of learning from them.

On the flip side of things, I do often feel that “Christians” and “churches” are often the biggest reason that people get “turned off” from wanting Christ in their lives. Generally speaking, churches do often put more focus on their own traditions or beliefs about how things should be than on just loving God’s people as Christ loves us. Maybe that’s kinda what the authors were getting at… that churches can cause us to focus on the “external” signs of our faith (how we dress at service, how often we go to service, which building we attend church in, etc.) instead of the “internal” heart of our faith.

I was raised in a Protestant church, but don’t classify myself by any one denomination (I currently attend –sporadically– a Baptist church).

~MizB

You wrote: I think the tradition of needing the priest as a mediator often hinders people’s relationship with God. It bothered me that I was being taught that the priest needed to speak for me to God instead of me speaking to Him myself.

This is what the authors started talking about in the chapter about pastors… they see Sunday morning services as a sort of “spectator sport”, where the congregation is the audience, and the pastor provides the “entertainment”. They think that we should be able to commune with God for ourselves, not need the pastor to act as “mediator”, delivering a word from God for us each Sunday.

You wrote: …if you just attend church on Sunday and expect that to be the “be-all, end-all” of your Christian experience, then that is wrong. The Sunday experience is just one piece of what it looks like to worship the Lord.

And, I agree… I don’t limit my Christian faith just to Sunday mornings. It’s my whole life… Sunday is –as you said– just one piece of the bigger picture.

You wrote: I think the heart is the real issue. Things that the Lord meant for good can quickly turn sour if our hearts are in the wrong place. I wonder if the authors of the book cover that concept… that the traditions and rituals (while they may have originated with pagan roots) are not the problem, but the state of our hearts is.

They may have touched on this, but if they did, it was so brief that I don’t remember it. It certainly wasn’t a focus, when maybe it should’ve been. They were more about how the church (as it is known today) is so hindering of the Christian’s faith, and not so much about the underlying issues. It was all more about the external — the pastor, the building, the clothes we wear, the music, etc.

Thanks for your thoughts!

~MizB

My initial, gut-instinct response to you being upset by the concept of not needing a mediator is to ask your spiritual background. I don’t mean to be offensive in any way, but my gut instinct would be to ask if you are (or were at some point) associated with Roman Catholicism. I grew up in the Catholic church (and no longer attend there), so I know that the priest serves the role of mediator, even to the point that his parishioners are called to confess their sins to him so that he can mediate between them and the Lord. This is one of the main things about the Catholic church that I do not agree with spiritually, and actually led to me leaving that church. I think the tradition of needing the priest as a mediator often hinders people’s relationship with God. It bothered me that I was being taught that the priest needed to speak for me to God instead of me speaking to Him myself. Again, I don’t mean to come across offensive in anyway. It was just an “instinct” that maybe you also come from a Catholic background!

I would be interested in hearing more about the concept of a pastor being a “hindrance” to the church. I don’t really understand that concept! I am very grateful for all that my pastor has been able to teach me about the Word. What were their concerns? Also, what is it about the church’s architecture that is problematic?

My thoughts are that if you just attend church on Sunday and expect that to be the “be-all, end-all” of your Christian experience, then that is wrong. The Sunday experience is just one piece of what it looks like to worship the Lord. I don’t want to give up gathering in a church building with other believers for many reasons. For one, I am blessed enough to live in a country where I CAN do this, and I can do so without fear or worry that I will be arrested or killed. Praise God! I would hate to give up such an amazing privilege, a privilege that people in other countries are willing to die for.

Also, I think that being able to gather with such a large group of people and simultaneously worship God through song and prayer is a really beautiful thing. I imagine it really tickles God to hear us all uniting together in one chorus with the sole purpose of praising Him. If there is problem with that, then I believe it lies in the hearts of the believers and not in that structure or format itself.

I think the book of Acts teaches us a lot about what the Church was intended to be. While I don’t foresee us all moving to live communally (since people consider that “cult-ish”), we can adopt these principles. We can share with our members who are in need. We can meet together often for prayer and fellowship. As Christians, these shouldn’t have to be “formal” times. Shouldn’t we always be meeting with one another for fellowship? And in doing so, wouldn’t prayer naturally be a part of it?

As I said before, I think the heart is the real issue. Things that the Lord meant for good can quickly turn sour if our hearts are in the wrong place. I wonder if the authors of the book cover that concept… that the traditions and rituals (while they may have originated with pagan roots) are not the problem, but the state of our hearts is.

I would encourage you to continue to continue to explore these concepts, and also to continue doing so with discernment. Interesting book!